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TeveritasAequitas

Registered: May 30, 2008
Posts: 181

March 03, 2009 at 10:02 PM

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#31

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It is the territory that comes with the Mass- the unadulterated and unashamedly Catholic Truths of our Holy Faith. You do not get that with most Novus Ordo.

I agree, and I believe that to be the basic premise of most of the posters here. Yet you see the disparagement between the TLM mass and the NO mass. At the same time, you take issue with the term "traditional Catholic"? It is a question, not an accusation. I would really like to hear what you have to say.
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Tradcat

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Registered: July 17, 2007
Posts: 1,185

March 03, 2009 at 10:17 PM

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#32

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In my humble opinion, the Catholic communities in Asia have almost entirely escaped the wrath of Vatican II for the most part.

Perhaps the Vietnamese communities, but not all Asia. In Thailand, for example, Bp. Manat says they are very liberal, lots of ecumenism, especially with the Buddhists. Likewise, in the Philippines, Singapore, and Japan.

It is the same in India, to the point where one questions (seriously) whether many of the native clergy are truly Catholic or truly Hindu (since in the Hindu system, Christ can be seen as a God, just as Vishnu is, etc. ) There is a lot of inculturation and pagan nonsense.
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Claude_Frollo

Registered: Feb 16, 2009
Posts: 63

March 03, 2009 at 11:36 PM

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#33

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Originally Posted by Tradcat

Quote:

In my humble opinion, the Catholic communities in Asia have almost entirely escaped the wrath of Vatican II for the most part.

Perhaps the Vietnamese communities, but not all Asia. In Thailand, for example, Bp. Manat says they are very liberal, lots of ecumenism, especially with the Buddhists. Likewise, in the Philippines, Singapore, and Japan.

It is the same in India, to the point where one questions (seriously) whether many of the native clergy are truly Catholic or truly Hindu (since in the Hindu system, Christ can be seen as a God, just as Vishnu is, etc. ) There is a lot of inculturation and pagan nonsense.

Regrettably, that was always the case to some extent (even before V2)- I'll go into more detail later because I need to go to school tomorrow.

TeveritasAequitas- can you rephrase your question? I am having trouble understanding it.

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"They do not want to hear about the Grace of God? They will hear the grace of the cannon!"- Alfred I Candidus Ferdinand, Prince of Windisch-Grätz

"I have loved justice and hated iniquity; therefore I die in exile." - Pope Gregory VII

"Men are more easily governed through their vices than through their virtues." - Napoleon I of France

"The whole modern world is divided between progressives and conservatives. The job of the progressives is to make mistakes. The job of the conservatives is to prevent those mistakes from being corrected"- G.K. Chesterton

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stevusmagnus
Registered: March 01, 2009
Posts: 29

March 04, 2009 at 12:23 PM

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#34

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Originally Posted by Claude_Frollo
EDIT: Nice to see you posting Stevus, I've missed you since I deleted my account "Rex_Tremendae" on Fisheaters (under 18). Who is your avatar?

Thanks "Rex"! I think you'll find this is a better forum.

It's Cary Grant.

ContraTerrentumEQR

Registered: Feb 13, 2009
Posts: 123

March 04, 2009 at 12:29 PM

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#35

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Originally Posted by stevusmagnus
It's Cary Grant.

I never liked his accent. I like Humphrey Bogart's and Jimmy Stewart's, though.

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TeveritasAequitas

Registered: May 30, 2008
Posts: 181

March 04, 2009 at 12:39 PM

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#36

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Originally Posted by Claude_Frollo
TeveritasAequitas- can you rephrase your question? I am having trouble understanding it.

Sure, in your previous post, you stated that you see the major differences between the TLM Mass and the NO Mass. The constant from the posters thus far has been the connection to the TLM.

Where I am confused is that you see the problem between the Masses, but still have a problem with the phrase "traditional Catholic". My question is, why so?
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"Perfection of moral virtue does not wholly take away the passions, but regulates them." -St. Thomas Aquinas-

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tornpage

Registered: May 29, 2008
Posts: 65

March 04, 2009 at 06:07 PM

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#37

Psyche writes:

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Now, I won't say that people who do not assist at the traditional Mass are not Catholic, because they most likely do not know any better, and they try their best, and we must pray for them. But strictly speaking, according to what the term "traditional Catholic" has meant all these years, people who attend the NO cannot be considered "traditional." Some people may consider themselves traditional, and for intents and purposes, may really hold most or all traditional Catholic beliefs (but usually these Catholics have been called conservative) but if they do not make a habit of assisting at the traditional Mass, they can not fall under this definition.

I'm glad he wouldn't say they are not Catholic. I think what he meant to say was, "they are not Traditional Catholics." I think connecting "Traditional Catholicism" with the traditional Mass is understandable, and identifying traditional catholics as those dedicated to the traditional Mass may appear to be a good, working definition.

I love the TLM, but don't assist at one. I regularly attend the NO, so I guess I would not meet the definition of a traditional catholic that is being bandied about here. But I like to visit forums like this one, and fisheaters, because I find that many traditional catholics are also strict about the doctrines of salvation, like "no salvation outside the catholic church." For example, there's an interesting discussion going on here in a thread concerning predestination. That's why I like to hang around with you "traditional catholics." Many who attend the NO, the overwhelming majority, are very weak on "traditional" doctrines concerning salvation, like a strict[er] construction of "no salvation outside the Catholic church." In a sense, I think Catholics who hold to the stricter, traditional doctrines are the true traditionalists, and it has nothing to do, strictly speaking, with the liturgy they attend.

The TLM more effectively and powerfully makes the traditional doctrines alive by bringing them before us, in living the dynamism of speech and action, in the liturgy. But the TLM is the dress, not the body, of the traditionalist. For example, you have many "traditionalists" advocating avoidance of sacramental grace by counseling rejection of the NO, and avoidance of the sacraments provided by the new rites. And they fail to see how un-Catholic and un-Traditional a position that is.

They are rejecting the divine economy of salvation in instances where the beloved TLM and the old sacramental rites are not available, and thereby violating Catholic principles that trump any attraction to a particular liturgical form. The See of Peter is infallible when it determines the form in which a Catholic will receive the sacraments essential to our salvation, for the gates of Hell cannot prevail, and if a Pope were to institute a rite that could not provide the sacramental grace necessary for our salvation, the gates of Hell would have prevailed. A Catholic who understands the faith and the infallible Catholic principles that ensure it, as well as the divine Lord who ensures the preservation of that faith forever, could not so err in speculating that the Mass in any form approved by the Pope is "evil," or engage in revolt from it (I'm not talking about criticism, but rejection) by denying its place in the economy of salvation.

The attraction to the TLM of "traditional" Catholics often metastasizes into a rejection of Papal authority at its core: the infallibility and the indefectibility of the See of Peter when it determines either the faith necessary for salvation or the sacramental means whereby we may access it.

Which is why I am the anomaly of a "Feeneyite" who adheres to the strict and traditional interpretations regarding EENS and baptism while accepting(and worshiping according to) the liturgical rite which the latest descendants of Peter have provided to Christ's sheep to apply the merits of Christ's precious blood to their souls.

And which is why I guess, after all, I consider myself a Traditional Catholic. Which I will define as one who holds to the necessary Catholic principles wherever they may lead, even if it leads to assistance at an NO in the local Catholic church.

tornpage

Psyche

Resident Goddess
Registered: July 19, 2007
Posts: 1,099

March 04, 2009 at 06:56 PM

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#38

Quote:

I love the TLM, but don't assist at one. I regularly attend the NO, so I guess I would not meet the definition of a traditional catholic that is being bandied about here.

No, I wouldn't consider you a traditional Catholic. I'd call you conservative. Or "orthodox".

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Claude_Frollo

Registered: Feb 16, 2009
Posts: 63

March 05, 2009 at 07:29 PM

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#39

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeveritasAequitas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claude_Frollo
TeveritasAequitas- can you rephrase your question? I am having trouble understanding it.

I am so sorry, I knew exactly how I was going to answer but after what turned out to be an exhilarating badminton match with my younger brother, I cannot recall the slightest bit. I'll get back later should my memory return.

Ah...wait I recall somewhat now. I am opposed the the use of the term "traditional Catholic" because it makes the Church seem like the Church of England with High Church, Low Church, et cetera. Also like I mentioned above, Novus Ordo greatly varies. I was used to weekly Benediction, rosary before Mass, frequent Confession, et cetera when I attended Vietnamese Novus Ordo. So it seems to me a stereotype.
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http://sanctasapienta.blogspot.com

"They do not want to hear about the Grace of God? They will hear the grace of the cannon!"- Alfred I Candidus Ferdinand, Prince of Windisch-Grätz

"I have loved justice and hated iniquity; therefore I die in exile." - Pope Gregory VII

"Men are more easily governed through their vices than through their virtues." - Napoleon I of France

"The whole modern world is divided between progressives and conservatives. The job of the progressives is to make mistakes. The job of the conservatives is to prevent those mistakes from being corrected"- G.K. Chesterton

Monarchy -- the only government supported by God

Irenaeus

Registered: March 05, 2009
Posts: 5

March 05, 2009 at 10:55 PM

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#40

My $.02, a Traditional Catholic sees Vatican II as a valid but, unnecessary council that did not improve the Church in any way.

NeoCatholics believe that it was a valid and necessary council but, unfortunately was never interpreted properly.
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Inion_Coinin

Registered: March 04, 2009
Posts: 41

March 05, 2009 at 11:05 PM

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#41

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Originally Posted by Irenaeus
My $.02, a Traditional Catholic sees Vatican II as a valid but, unnecessary council that did not improve the Church in any way.

NeoCatholics believe that it was a valid and necessary council but, unfortunately was never interpreted properly.

Well, it's hard for me to say whether a council was necessary or not, because I have very little concept regarding what was going on at the time. Perhaps if a council was necessary, it should have contained actual helps, which Vatican ii seems to lack.

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heliotropes

Registered: March 29, 2008
Posts: 1,156

March 06, 2009 at 09:43 AM

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#42

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We needed a council, just not that one.

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